Challaine (00:00)
You're just dancing along. Hello everyone. Welcome to today's episode of Let's Have a Chat. And I am having a chat or was having a fantastic chat already with Coach Mac. And if you have ever or if you if you drink currently or you were drinking previous in your previous life, have suffered from anxiety, ring the bell, ding, ding, ding. That was me. Never, ever, ever did I make the correlation that my anxiety and depression was directly
correlated to my drinking career. So we're going to talk with Coach Mack today and get into the nitty gritty and the ugly of it and that there is hope for us and for those of us who suffer from like this debilitating thing called anxiety. Anxiety, that's a term that gets thrown around. We can recover or at least make it less life controlling.
I don't know if anxiety really ever goes away. Maybe you have some more insight on that. But Coach Mack, thank you so much for being here and for taking the time to sit with me today and let's have chat.
COACH MAK (01:11)
Hello, I have never heard Hangxiety, so I am already jazzed. I'm like, okay, am I outdated?
Challaine (01:14)
Really? Because you're hungover?
I think you are because you're hungover and you are anxious. Yeah, you're anxiety.
COACH MAK (01:22)
and anxious.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know what? The moment you said that, I was like, well, why haven't I heard it? Like, why have I not heard that term before? And as part of anxiety, I mean, let's already get to like the deep and ugly of it, is you go into isolation and introspection, right? So anytime I was hungover and anxious, I mean, I retreated. I retreated into the deep grief, the deep shame, the deep embarrassment, whatever, right? So I wasn't ever like,
Challaine (01:26)
Yeah, that's crazy.
Yeah.
COACH MAK (01:49)
joking around with a buddy and being like, I'm so, you I got my anxiety today. Like I was, yeah, I would have been too anxious to even.
Challaine (01:55)
I couldn't function. I
couldn't even get out of bed. And as a mother of small itty bitties, mom fail. Fuck me, seriously. I couldn't get out of bed. And I'd have to have my older children get them up and change diapers and do, just terrible, terrible, because the anxiety.
COACH MAK (02:08)
I'm
Challaine (02:21)
manifested not only mentally with the depression and all the shitty things that I did the night before and the lack of sleep, physically I could not move. Like I couldn't even get to a point to drink water. Like it was just ugh, excuse me, it was so bad. So how did you get into the work of anxiety and just like taking your pain to be your purpose and your
COACH MAK (02:38)
Yeah.
Yeah, well, you know, I'm actually gonna cut out the first half of the story because it's the least interesting. Okay, so like, let's do the first half of the story in one sentence or less. That is, I've experienced, perceived and felt, you know, I've had a perceived and felt experience in symptoms of anxiety for as long as I can remember. Okay, boom, that's the first half of the story. The second half of the story is more interesting and also incredibly relevant to me chatting to you today.
Challaine (02:57)
Sure.
You
COACH MAK (03:18)
And that's, know, fast forward to, just, at the time of this recording, I just recently turned 30, but in my early twenties is when, and of course, just like you, I didn't really put it together how tightly correlated substance use was with psychological imbalance, right? Like I'm just going to categorize it as that, because we're not just talking about anxiety, right? We're talking about anything that feels mentally
Challaine (03:45)
Mm-hmm.
COACH MAK (03:48)
It just excruciating, uncomfortable, sticky, know, tangled, you name it.
Challaine (03:50)
Yeah.
I'm using
that word all the time, it just feels sticky, like sticky and icky and ugh. Yeah, yeah.
COACH MAK (03:56)
Sticky, yes.
Yeah, yeah. But then, I, my, I think I did start to notice that there was some increased anxiety symptoms with any, you know, kind of dabblings in substance use, you know, the drinking, the pot smoke and what, you know, what have you. But man, it was not until there was like a thick chapter. You know, when you turn a chapter in a book and like, this is like,
Challaine (04:22)
Yes.
COACH MAK (04:23)
The page I'm about to turn is like 10 pages thick. And that is the day that panic started to knock on my door. And it pretty much happened overnight. And the whole middle and second half of my 20s was completely riddled, completely riddled with panic attacks. And I don't just mean, I would have a few panic attacks a year. I was living in constant terror. It was perpetual.
Challaine (04:27)
Okay.
How did that show
up for you? Panic attacks. Because they can show up for people in different ways. For me, for example, especially when I, I don't know if it was anxiety attack, panic attack, whatever way you want to coin the term, when I would be driving, I remember specifically going from my town to the big city and I had to pull over on the side of the highway because I was so anxious and had like this
COACH MAK (04:55)
Guess.
Challaine (05:19)
derep- what's the word? Derealization of my own body that it's like I wasn't even driving the car. I couldn't swallow my own spit. I felt like just in an instant I was gonna spin out of control and my head was gonna blow up like just this crazy shit that I was like trying to manifest for myself unintentionally and like it was so bad and I would have children in the car sometimes and I'd have to just pull over. I wasn't drunk.
COACH MAK (05:23)
Yeah, yeah.
Challaine (05:49)
and I'd have to pull over to be like, either call my husband, he'd have to talk me out of it. And now that I'm looking back, that maybe was a panic attack. So the question is, how did panic attacks like show up for you in your life?
COACH MAK (06:02)
Well, the thing is, that later on with repeated experience, repeated observation, and more importantly, and this like, hello listeners, please, please listen up because let me cut to the chase. Like let me cut to the end of Shalane and I's conversation today, which is that I'm going to, I'm going to really invite you to consider honest evaluation, honest evaluation of how any of your dabblings in doing it's in any substance use.
Challaine (06:19)
Yeah.
COACH MAK (06:33)
is making you feel. And once I got very honest and very transparent, right? It was a very honest, raw evaluation of, OK, I have, and I'm just talking the little stuff. I have half of a beer. How am I feeling five minutes into that beer? How am I feeling 10 minutes into that beer? How am I feeling two hours after that, even just one beer? And the more repeated, honest observations and evaluations you have, the more honest of data and results you're going to get. And for me, the more honest I got,
Challaine (06:53)
Yeah.
COACH MAK (07:02)
the more observations I made and the more experience I had, I realized that my God, any stimulant, any stimulant, caffeine, marijuana, alcohol, you name it, had a strong direct correlation to anxiety at large, but specifically panic. So fast forward to some of the end of my story and we can cut back through the middle, but the moment, yeah, yeah, the moment I...
Challaine (07:23)
Yeah, I'll go back and forth and...
COACH MAK (07:27)
Well, it wasn't the moment because when you're riddled with panic, it lingers for quite a while. And especially if you're not getting the appropriate and effective interventions. And I definitely wasn't. And that's part of my story as well. But once my body reharmonized and got back to a more natural state of harmony with nervous system regulation, psychology, you know, what was running through my bloodstream, right? Like, let's just call it what it is. Once I really, exactly. Once I really became sober,
Challaine (07:51)
We're poisoned. We're fucking poisoning ourselves, right?
COACH MAK (07:57)
Boom, snap overnight. Easily 60, 70 % of my panic gone, permanently gone, has not come back. Has not come back so much so, Shalane, that if I right now were to be having a panic wave, which by the way, in all honesty, to both you, myself, and the listeners, I still get probably a handful of what I call panic waves every single year. I don't know why say every single year.
Challaine (08:22)
Okay.
What
triggers it? What brings it on? Do you know?
COACH MAK (08:27)
Well,
a big thing used to be the substance use. That's not everything. That's not all the reasons why panic would turn on for me, but it was a massive player, if not the most dominant player, and I did not know. And here's why I did not know, and here's why many of our listeners today, if they resonate with me and my story and my experience, as well as yours too, because hey, you were having panic attacks, anxiety attacks.
Challaine (08:31)
Yeah, yeah.
COACH MAK (08:53)
just perpetual anxiety and discomfort in the body and mind, right? And I know that because I read your book, I woke up one day and changed my fucking mind. And for anyone that's listening who hasn't read her book, she talks about this a bit, is.
Challaine (08:56)
Huh.
Thank you.
COACH MAK (09:09)
I totally just lost where I was going with that, but what did you ask me, Shalane? My brain just like flew away for a second.
Challaine (09:14)
That's okay, see, you just show up as you are and you just, that's okay. You were so enwrapped in promoting my book and I love you for that.
COACH MAK (09:17)
Yeah, my little fairy braid just, yeah.
Yeah, I
was promoting a book and then I was also like thinking about, know, and this is what's going to be interesting is as we chat today, there's going to be so many memories that are flooding in my head that I haven't forgotten about, but now time has gone on. So some of the stuff, you know, I'm not thinking about as much anymore, like these memories.
Challaine (09:42)
Speaking of time, did you notice, we're just going forget that you forgot the question, it's all good. Have you noticed or did you notice that as you got older, the anxiety, anxiety, panic attacks got worse? Yes.
COACH MAK (09:55)
Yes, in my 20s
specifically. mean, of course, because we're all continually getting older, but throughout my 20s, well, actually, no, up until about 28, yeah, it was just each year I got older. It was getting worse.
Challaine (10:09)
Isn't that so weird? Like when I, well, I took my first drink at 12 and like as I got like into becoming a teenager and early adult, getting up and going to work, like I'd work in the bar and then be in the bar till closed, two, clean up, three o'clock, take a bus home by four, in bed by five, probably had some more drinks. And then as long as I could be at work at Canadian Tire,
for nine o'clock, like if I only got two hours of sleep, I'm good. Maybe a little bit of a headache. But as I got older and like my hangovers would go on for like four days. Really, if we're being honest, we're if yeah, like four days of regulating my urine, my food again, because the first day post drinking, you're not like salad.
You know what I mean? Or like, let's have a smoothie. Like, it's just all this crap shit that you put into your body. So it take, like it was taking four days to get over four nights ago, right? So I'm really taking, I'm stealing four days of my life for one fucking night of chaos. Is really what it is. Like, to be honest, it was just chaotic. It was spending too much money at the casino or at the pub, eating the crap food and all for what?
COACH MAK (11:34)
Yeah, no, and you hit on the nail. Mine was about three or four days as I got older. That's not what it used to be, but as I got older, yeah, it would be, it would, and when I say hangover, right, and you and I might be a little bit different with this just depending on our body, makeup, chemistry, genetics, our drinking use, all that stuff, but it became also as I got older, not only was my bodily consequences more palpable and real and prolonged,
Challaine (11:39)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
COACH MAK (12:02)
but also my sensitivity to alcohol was going up and up and up. So hungover for me in my experience wasn't a, you know, I had drank two full bottles of wine and took five shots. And then of course, clearly anyone's going to be hungover. I had, it eventually became in the height, yeah, and the most heightened expression of my sensitivity, it would be, I had two beers and that would affect me for three days. Yeah. So I had it.
Challaine (12:29)
really? Okay.
COACH MAK (12:32)
And that's another part of my story is that as I got
Challaine (12:33)
Yeah.
COACH MAK (12:34)
older and older, the consequences were getting higher and my sensitivities to alcohol were getting more. And so actually I was drinking less and less. The consequences were going up.
Challaine (12:44)
I actually love that for you that your sensitivity got so high. Total opposite for me. Like I was committed to two bottles of wine a night. And then if we went out, then fuck it was at least eight to 15 doubles of vodka crayons or whatever. But if we stayed home and be the two bottles of wine and then I'd start getting into his whiskey and then there'd be another wine run. So as I got older, like
COACH MAK (12:49)
Yes.
Challaine (13:13)
Fox sensitivity. I didn't have any. I didn't have any. So for you to like, to beer and you're like, icky, icky sticky.
COACH MAK (13:20)
Yeah, well,
I didn't for a while, had the whole, you know, what sounds like you had, most people have is tolerance gains, right? We gain tolerance, we are capacity to intake, and I'm using capacity, you know, as a loose term, right? Because we can very much debate that that's not an appropriate word, but, you know, generically speaking, like our capacity to intake more frequency and quantity of alcohol goes up, and I had that. I had that for quite a while.
Challaine (13:28)
Yeah, 100%.
It is what it is.
COACH MAK (13:50)
And I could, you know, kind of out drink anyone that I was sitting next to and hold myself more together, right? Like I had all that. That was a part of my season.
Challaine (13:57)
Yeah. Hold on. I'm gonna pause
you right there. Could, like in hindsight, could you really hold yourself together? Because damn, I know in some moments, like Queen Bee, like I'm, I was presenting myself well. I thought I was. But if you were, if you were to watch videos of me in specific instances, guaranteed I was not keeping my shit together. There's no way. So do you really think you were keeping yourself together?
COACH MAK (14:05)
Bye.
I know.
I thought it's funny you say this because I actually was thinking about this. I actually was thinking about this about a month ago before we even connected. I don't know what it was. I've thought about this actually a handful of times over the years. I think about, oh god, this is so embarrassing to say. But I think about college professors back when I was in college. I would show up to meetings with college professors just like reeking of marijuana, I am sure. Or like had.
Challaine (14:53)
it was baked all
through high school. Yeah, yeah.
COACH MAK (14:55)
Yeah,
or like having alcohol in my breath and my eyes being glazed, but I had a really nice posture and like I was very, and still consider myself very articulate and a really good student and well organized. So I can, you know, I had certain skills that, know, either maybe peer college students didn't. So I felt that I was holding myself in this, this way. And, a part of me still today thinking back, I do think that 80 % of the time.
I actually held myself together really well where people didn't really know how under the influence I was most of the time. And I'm not saying that out of pride. It's actually very sad when you say that out loud. Like that's not something to be proud of or to celebrate, but I do think 80 % of the time people didn't really know like what the state of mind I was in. And yeah, I don't think people knew, but.
Challaine (15:25)
Yes. OK.
Yeah, yeah.
COACH MAK (15:50)
I mean, come on, let's be honest, like 20 % of time, yeah, I probably thought I was more together than I was.
Challaine (15:54)
You know what's fascinating? You talk about like college professors and I talked about high school a little bit and thinking about where I am now in my adult life and I've got older children and they talk about their teachers and they were so weird and blah blah blah and like I see these memes on Facebook where when the teacher rolled out the TV on the big stand, you're a little younger than me but right?
COACH MAK (16:20)
No, no, no, no, no, just brought
back this memory, yeah, yeah.
Challaine (16:23)
Yeah,
like core memory. When the teacher would bring out the TV on the stand, they were fucking hung over. Like there's no doubt in my mind. Now. Right?
COACH MAK (16:36)
I've never thought about this. Yeah,
I've never thought about this until this moment. Yeah.
Challaine (16:40)
Yeah, and like what, all of a sudden it's let's watch a movie day when you have this whole curriculum that you have to follow. So yeah, when you mentioned college professors, that just brought back that core memory for me. So, oh man.
COACH MAK (16:46)
Yeah
Yeah, you know,
I wanted to say too, just as a personal sharing, when I was reading your book, you you mentioned like the 90s girls, like all of us 90s chicks. And I know I'm, you know, a handful of years younger than you are, but I still fit into that category. So it was fun reading your book and you would use different examples kind of from, you know, just different things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, even kind of like how you did just now and you brought up these.
Challaine (17:14)
I don't even remember what they were. Yeah, yeah.
COACH MAK (17:21)
little just pop cultural things that I totally forgot about. I mean, so far back in my memory. And I just had fun. had fun reading your book as someone that was born in the 90s or experienced the 90s. Yes, because I was born in the 90s, I experienced the 90s young, but still I understood most of your references, right? Like they were still relevant to me. And it brought back a certain kind of nostalgia that I didn't know I had missed. Yeah.
Challaine (17:35)
Yeah, yeah.
I love that. Thank
you. Thank you. I try, like I strongly recognize and like hold, I don't know, just holding, hold on to the fact that I am a 90s girl and it just played such an integral part of my upbringing and the culture and the lack of like Facebook and like MySpace coming and just like this revolutionary time period in our lives. So I'm glad you found some fun in that.
COACH MAK (18:14)
Mm-hmm.
Challaine (18:15)
And thank you for reading the book. I love what you have behind you. You have these little these words, anxiety, overwhelm, stress, emotions, panic, decisions and adulting. I got to ask, did you place those in a certain order for a reason? OK. OK. Are they books? OK.
COACH MAK (18:30)
They're not in any particular order. Yes. And these books actually kind of get shuffled around.
They're actually really heavy books. I actually got these books originally for my photo shoot for actionable anxiety, my private coaching practice. Did the whole professional photo shoot or my first professional photo shoot for my practice. And then after the shoot, I realized I have all these books that just have this prop names on it.
Challaine (18:57)
Yeah.
COACH MAK (18:58)
indicate what it is I work with with folks, depression, anxiety, decisions, know, all this kind of stuff, substance use. And I thought, well, what the hell am going to do with these books? Like, I'm just going to be stored in a box. I thought, oh, no, I at least like should put them in my office somewhere and have them in the background. I haven't curated them in a better spot, but they're here for now. So.
Challaine (19:17)
No,
it's absolutely perfect. I thought they were blocks. They just look like, yeah, they just, okay, fair.
COACH MAK (19:20)
They put in a tar block. Because, you know, I to do all the
exact same thickness for the photo shoot. So the camera wouldn't pick up on all these weird discongruencies with the book. I mean, this is like a technical thing that probably none of our listeners are interested in right now. But I actually had to work with a designer. Yeah.
Challaine (19:35)
It's all good. You show up as you are. just let's have
a chat and see what comes of it. You have something that you say, which I absolutely love, but I want you to to expand on it. Brain pain, brain drain and wallet strain. What the hell does all that mean?
COACH MAK (19:50)
Yes, okay, so
this is my passion, my elixir, my sex. This is what I wake up thinking about. This is what I go to bed thinking about concerning how I am showing up to service others in the world, but in particular through my private coaching practice, Actionable Anxiety. The long and short of it is that I have found both through my personal experience as someone in the recent past and for many years on end who sought out professional
help for my mental health. And yes, it was for primarily anxiety and panic, but also just holistic mental health. I was consistently, you know, I know I don't need to filter, filter anything out here in our chat. You know, I just was, I was pretty much fed up and disappointed in the caliber of, of care and craft that these various mental health practitioners was demonstrating to me. You know, was showing up.
paying them good money to be a effective source of support for me. Not just a source of support, because what the hell does that really mean? I wanted effectiveness. I was freaking the fuck out. I had panic attacks every day. I was so exhausted of excessive introspection and thinking about my anxiety, managing my anxiety, finding coping for my anxiety, finding strategies for my anxiety, working out all the time because that helps with anxiety, helps with mental health.
Challaine (21:02)
Yeah.
COACH MAK (21:18)
There just was so much doing and that's what I call the doings and dabblings. You're exercising all the time, you're eating healthy, you're trying to read a book each night, you're trying to meditate, you're trying to go to your therapy sessions, you're trying to do all this stuff. It's a lot of...
Challaine (21:30)
These all sound great
to be honest. Like working out is good for you, eating healthy is good for you, meditating is good for you. So where was the disconnect or the switch for you where you're like this shit's not working I need something else.
COACH MAK (21:37)
Correct.
Yeah, it was twofold. The first was all of this is working momentarily and temporarily. All the working out, the meditation, the yoga, the this, the that, know, laying in the park and relaxing, reading the books, all of the things, okay? Whatever it is, you list it off. I did them. Yeah, whatever it is, I did them. You're probably, you know, if you're listening in and you're, know, anxiety is something you've been working on too, you probably do all the things. You do the dabblings and the doings. Well, they worked.
Challaine (21:58)
I just, excuse me, I'm just gonna go lay in the park.
COACH MAK (22:12)
They worked temporarily, they worked short term, but they never worked fully and they never, whatever success I did achieve with reducing the frequency, intensity and duration of my anxiety symptoms, it was so short lived. It was so short lived. Five minutes later was back, an hour later was back, five hours it was back, the next day was back. I mean, I couldn't go 24 hours.
Challaine (22:32)
So
what was back for you? Like what were you experiencing when it came back?
COACH MAK (22:39)
I mean, I think the quickest way to answer that because of course anxiety is a little bit different than panic. Yes, panic is a derivative and a form of anxiety, but I would talk about things differently depending on who I'm talking to, what we're talking about. I mean, whether it's panic or anxiety, it's just perpetual discomfort. You're just perpetual discomfort. I never felt like...
I could really stay in harmony. I just never felt like I could really stay in authentic and aligned harmony. It didn't matter how I looked on the outside. And for any listener who has experienced perpetual anxiety themselves, you know what I'm talking about. It doesn't matter how you look. It doesn't even matter how you're holding yourself.
Challaine (23:19)
So.
Yeah, yeah. It's like trying to describe
the colour red. You know what mean? Red is, it's red. Like you just know. And anxiety is, you just, you just know. And if you don't know, then you're fucking lucky. You're one of the lucky ones because anxiety runs rampant. Absolutely rampant. And there's so many outside influences that I want to, I have some ideas of what they are, but I want to get
COACH MAK (23:45)
Yeah.
Challaine (23:58)
You're more versed in all of this. For me, that's what you base your practice around. Outside influences that can trigger anxiety. The first one that comes to my mind is social media. Because it plays such a huge role in everybody's lives, especially teenagers. And I'm witnessing it with my own teenage daughter. The anxiety, not so much anxiety, but like the lack of confidence and the...
pairing, which kind of just starts to snowball into, I good enough? And then I can't talk about this and losing confidence and just, you just snowball into this being that you really aren't supposed to be because you are influenced by so many outside sources. So aside from social media, sorry, I off on a tangent there. Is there anything that you can think of off the top of your head that would be an outside influence for anxiety or panic attacks?
COACH MAK (24:55)
for creating anxiety, such as social media.
Challaine (24:56)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
COACH MAK (25:01)
Well, you know what, let's just, I mean, there's many things that come to mind, but an outside influence, which is really an internal influence, because it's coming from within, so, I mean, let's touch on, you know, your teenage daughter, right? Teenagers are in a state of their neurological and psychological development so that their reality as such is often emotionally heightened. This is science. This is not subject, yeah, this is science.
Challaine (25:11)
Ooh. Yeah.
Yes. Chill out.
It's okay. I promise.
COACH MAK (25:33)
But this isn't subject to one teenager versus the next. Where young adults are at, whether preteen or young adult, where they're at in their neurological development will yield a psychological reality that is much more emotionally dysregulated and heightened.
It's an outside influence in the sense of we don't get full control, full automatic, natural and easeful control over that. Tomorrow we could erase our Facebooks. We could throw our phones in a lake. We could move into a hut in the middle of Alaska and never talk to anyone again. mean, we could, we could, we have actual full control on our social media interface, right? We don't get to speed up or slow down our neurological development and the greater scope and extent of evolution as a human.
Challaine (26:22)
I love this point of view.
Yeah.
COACH MAK (26:24)
Right? So
that's, it's kind of an outside force in the sense of we don't have full control over it, but it's an inside force because it's coming from within, right? Our biological development. So that, when you, when you take that reality and intersect it with something else like social media, that of course, hello, like that is why it's such a common example. And that is, I think probably one reason why you, you're subconsciously, you defaulted to saying that example with your teenage daughter. You know, I have a teenage daughter, super anxious because of this, isn't this.
in particular, it's catalyzed because of social media. Well, it's not just catalyzed because of social media, it's catalyzed because of this sweet spot intersection of how social media intersects with where she's at with her neurological development. And that is a different framing of the conversation, right? And so so often,
Challaine (26:56)
Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely. Because she
could have the same amount of interaction in social media. She's 13 now at 17 or 21 and it's gonna have a different effect or 25 when the brain... I've heard this for years. My mother used to say it to me and that's why it's stuck in my head. And if you've read my book, you know about my relationship with my mother working on it. That well your brain isn't fully developed until you're 25 and I just remember her saying that. But my point is...
COACH MAK (27:18)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Challaine (27:39)
So 13, 17, 21, 25, you could have the same attachment or addiction to your social media, but the outcome may be different because of the neurological development at the different stages in your life. Did I get that right? Oh, thank you. Yeah. Yeah.
COACH MAK (27:55)
Yeah, and it's not just it might, it's that it will. It's guaranteed. And you know,
just as a quick note, because I just, I find this interesting, but not surprising, is that sometimes in my different therapeutic communities I'm a part of, I will offer up different resources, such as some free sessions and stuff to, know, services to folks in my network. And hands down, Shalane, every time I offer up,
Maybe some free coaching sessions to folks in my therapeutic networks and things like that. The only people that will consistently and automatically contact me is mothers with teenage daughters.
Challaine (28:32)
Fascinating. For help with themselves or with help for their daughters.
COACH MAK (28:33)
And an emphasis on...
help with the teenage daughter.
Yeah, yeah. And so the part of me sharing that I think is interesting is the automatic. It's automatic. It's the almost, it's the automation of that. It just goes to show how profound that sweet spot intersection I talked about, right? It is a serious phenomena and it should be expected.
Challaine (28:53)
Yep.
COACH MAK (28:59)
I mean, it should be expected. it's not, that's why I'm saying it's interesting, but it's not surprising at all that that is a constant influx of inquiries I get from my services is mothers with teenage daughters.
Challaine (29:01)
Yeah.
It's totally.
fascinating. I want to go back to when you were talking about discovering going out of traditional modalities or different therapists or counselors, whatever. Were we ever put on medication?
COACH MAK (29:24)
So I was never put on it. did eventually, I did not entertain it. I declined any opportunity for it for years, but I did eventually dabble in a few different medications for really all in total within the dabblings, about two years. yeah, those added absolutely no fruits to my life and actually made my life more complicated and disturbed as.
often ends up not always, not always by any means, but often ends up happening for people. Yeah.
Challaine (29:56)
Yeah, I was
prescribed a few times because of the anxiety and the depression. And I'm grateful for the experience that I had because I took one pill and it gave me so much more anxiety. And I never took another pill after that. I'm like, this is this can't be my life. And for many people, I'm not a doctor, but disclaimer out there for many people, medication does work.
and maybe a good fit for you with discussions of your doctor, but for me it, I couldn't do it. And just being the addict that I know I am or was, I knew that was going to be a slippery slope. So it's like that one pill like gave me protection. This sounds so weird. That one pill gave me protection from all the other ones. And I'm grateful for
that moment of like clarity, I guess. And then down the road, like not once did anybody, any doctor ever fucking ask me how much booze are you drinking? How much poison are you putting into your damn body? Here's a pill. Like, let's have the conversation. What's actually physiologically going on in my body that you would think that I need a pill. You know what? I love my doctor.
COACH MAK (31:07)
Yep, 100%. I never once had, you know what, actually feeling.
Yeah.
Challaine (31:20)
I really, really do. And she's a sweet, sweet, sweet lady. But all she, she had me fill out like 10 questions and diagnose me with severe depression, PTSD, maybe it was like 20 questions, anxiety, severe PTSD and depression. Because I filled out a couple pieces of paper, she wrote me a script and
COACH MAK (31:40)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Challaine (31:47)
And then, so what am I supposed to do with this? Carry these labels with me throughout my life? however, one pill was enough, more anxiety, and never took another one.
COACH MAK (32:00)
There's so many things we can hit on with what you just said, but I wanna just really quickly circle back, because you were asking about the whole, yes, I have a saying, the brain pain, the brain drain, and the wallet strain, and so many things that you just said hit on that topic, and we could go so many places, but I just wanna quickly bring us back to that, because you asked about how did I come up with this kind of phrase, like the brain pain, the brain drain, and the wallet strain? Well, it came from about a decade of going to various, once again, various mental health.
Challaine (32:11)
Yeah, yeah.
COACH MAK (32:30)
practitioners and providers. I'm talking about all doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, counselors, whatever. It doesn't matter the title. I went through the whole hodgepodge. I had a picnic with them all. I tried them all, all that good stuff. And it was all the same. It was all the same. I was never once ever through any, and they were all great people, all well intended, all wanted to help and all had their own diverse portfolio of.
education and credentialing experiences. Okay, thumbs up. That's going to be the case for any practitioner you go to. Does that equate to effectiveness? That is a very different question.
Challaine (33:06)
That's such a key word
and you've brought it up a couple times. Effective.
COACH MAK (33:10)
Yes, and that is a big yes. is the if any of my clients will probably hear. Yeah, go ahead.
Challaine (33:12)
Like if you go to see a surgeon, if you go to a surgeon,
like I've had four C-sections, I don't want my surgeon or the doctor delivering, slicing me open to not be effective. You know, I don't want it to be like standard. I don't want them to have a standard practice. I want them to be effective at retrieving a live baby from my guts. Like just being honest, right? So effective is such an important
COACH MAK (33:26)
That's it.
Yes.
Challaine (33:41)
important and key term and I think it's a paramount that as we're going through these modalities or searching out the support that we're really getting curious and asking the questions is this effective.
COACH MAK (33:55)
Yeah, well, no, you know what? This is perfect, because let's use that example and it will take us back to what I was going to say. So, or what I was going to say. Yeah, well, I just, there's so much good circling I want to do, but let's just take that example and run with it. If you are pregnant and it becomes time that you are getting signals that your labor has become activated and it's time to pursue your labor service, whether it's pre-scheduled or otherwise, regardless, fast forward, you're in the,
Challaine (34:01)
We're having so much fun. We're like, let's go here. Let's go here. I know. Okay.
COACH MAK (34:25)
labor room, you're in the emergency room, you're getting your medical interventions and services from that labor delivery team, okay? You have a fair expect, you don't know what's gonna happen. Either it does the doctor, neither do the nurses, neither does the doulas or whoever else is hanging out in the room. No one knows exactly what's gonna happen and how long it's gonna take, but there is a very fair expectation that labor and the holistic process of it will be done anywhere within, you know,
30 minutes to four days, right? I mean, for the most part, that is the fair expectation. And if you were in that labor room, I mean, really, imagine your C-section has been had, your guts are exposed, I mean, all of the nitty gritty intimacy of it all. Imagine if you were laying there on that hospital bed for four years.
Challaine (35:10)
Yes. Yep.
COACH MAK (35:24)
You would, so, mean, you can't even really imagine it because, yeah, yeah, if you were laying there for four years, so vulnerable, so exposed, and with the, gone in with the very fair expectation of when the deliverables on those associated services should have been complete, you would be way past the point of what the hell is going on. Why is this taking four years to deliver my baby? I mean, you would,
Challaine (35:27)
That just hit me. Yeah, that just hit me. That's a really unrea- Yeah.
Yeah.
COACH MAK (35:54)
I mean, I don't know what you would think. I see I can't even fathom because it's just so unfathomable. But yet, but yet people will go to different mental health practitioners and not just mental health practitioners. I just like to say the word providers because that includes coaches. That includes coaches such as myself. I'm not an exception. People will go to some kind of a provider to get help for their mental health and their anxiety. And they will, let's just say, lay there in the labor room, okay, for a year.
Challaine (35:57)
Yeah. Yeah.
For sure. Yeah.
I love this analogy. I'm
like, I'm all into it. Yeah.
COACH MAK (36:24)
Yeah, they will
lay there on that table for years and years and years and sometimes even decades and never once during that process question why the hell things have not been complete. And by complete, I don't mean you eradicate all of anxiety. The only way you can, I always like to say to people, the only way you can eradicate anxiety is if you have a lobotomy. So would you like to sign up for that? You know, that's not the goal here, but the goal is always to have a dramatic
Challaine (36:32)
case.
You
COACH MAK (36:54)
and sustained and feel great reduction of your anxiety. While, and one way of doing that is clearing, not coping, but clearing as many sources of anxiety as possible. And that does not have to take 10 years laying on the labor, you know, the labor room table with your guts, you know, wide open and you're vulnerable and you're wondering and confused like, well, when am I going to get results? Well, you know, when am I going to get results? When are we going to be done here? Right?
Challaine (37:18)
Yeah.
Yeah.
COACH MAK (37:22)
Shalane, I can't
tell you how often people tiptoe into my world for my private practice. I was just chatting with a client just yesterday. Been seeing a therapist for really, let's say five years. We'll cut out some of the details for five years, bi-weekly. So twice a month, directly going to that practitioner for seeing them as someone, you know, to help reduce anxiety. So they're going to that practitioner for anxiety and never once in those five years did that, who is now my current client, did they ever think,
Why is this not working? Like, why am I not getting results? Why don't I actually have a reduction of the site?
Challaine (37:58)
There's something wrong
with me because I'm not changing. Well, continuing to do the same thing over time and not getting results. So it must be me.
COACH MAK (38:01)
Well, not just that, I mean,
Well,
so that can happen, right? But more importantly, well, not more importantly, just something else to highlight is that so many people, and it's not their fault, so many people don't even automatically and naturally consider evaluating if their therapy, their therapeutic intervention of any kind is working because we've been sold, this is a belief, okay? I'm gonna hit you with something hard here, okay?
Challaine (38:31)
Okay, hit me with it.
I'm ready. Ready.
COACH MAK (38:34)
I firmly
believe that we have been sold a lie that working on your anxiety, and I actually hate the term working on your anxiety, but we're gonna use it for now.
Challaine (38:42)
I don't
wanna work on my anxiety. What anxiety? I don't need fucking anxiety. I don't wanna work on it. Yeah.
COACH MAK (38:45)
Yeah.
Right? Yeah,
I firmly believe that we've been sold alive that working on your anxiety has to be this long winded journey of self discovery and healing. Because if you tack on self discovery and healing, it sounds meaningful, intimate and attractive. But the first, mean, that's, that's we can have, we can achieve a meaningful, intimate and attractive.
journey and it doesn't have to be so long winded and full of suffering and darkness and we could still be.
Challaine (39:17)
And living so much in the
past too, right? With all these therapeutic interventions. Sorry to cut you off, but just to add to therapeutic practices as opposed to coaching, I don't wanna talk therapy anymore. I don't wanna fucking talk about my mom. I've been talking about her since I was 12. Like now I talk about like jokingly, right? Like I've done the processing. I believe that there
COACH MAK (39:36)
Mm-hmm.
Challaine (39:46)
there comes, there has to come a point in your life where your past does not, is not an indicator of your current results. Like there has to be like a threshold or like you cross over something where you're moving into this new life. Yes, you recognized all the bullshit that happened, but do you have to go in like your client that you have now, do you have to go in twice a month and live there?
as a coach, I like to think about like sports coaches, right? They're like cheering you on and like, let's go for the win and this and that. like, they shouldn't be like you suck. You didn't get the goal because your mother was an alcoholic, right? Like coaches, like let's push you forward. Let's like go to the next step and reach your goals. Yes, it's important to know what happened, but where are we going next? Right? Like let's.
COACH MAK (40:41)
Mm-hmm.
Challaine (40:42)
There has to be a time in our lives when we can begin to release the past and not consistently live in it in order to move forward. Because if you stay there, guess what? You're staying there. You know what I mean? So working on it. I don't want to work on it anymore. I want to work past it.
COACH MAK (41:02)
Yeah, there's so many things I can say about this, but one thing I do want to say is that, you know, there's all these different therapeutic modalities that different practitioners, you know, once again, whether you're a counselor, social worker, licensed clinical marriage therapist, what have you, like, it doesn't matter, you know, various practitioners will come from various schools of thought and each school of thought
can have value, it can have merit, and it can have potential in how it is interacting with someone and helping them move forward. it becomes less about is this a value? ends up not being as interesting of a question, because most therapeutic, I have not came across a single therapeutic model that does not have some value it's presenting. The question I think that I just find more interesting
Challaine (41:53)
Of course.
COACH MAK (41:58)
And I always invite people to put an emphasized consideration on is, is this effective and timely? Because the truth of the matter, Shalane, is last time I checked, I'm only getting older. You're only getting older. The people... Everyone around us is like, your daughter's getting older. I know, let's sit up taller. Let's bring our head back or bring our head forward. No, but you know, it's, we only have so much time.
Challaine (42:10)
Hey, hey, hey, watch it. Yeah, my chins are telling me I'm getting older. Good Lord. Gosh, it's terrible.
COACH MAK (42:27)
Right? we, this whole notion, there's so much like social rhetoric and it's not just in therapeutic settings, it's also becoming prevalent in different like sociologically and pop culture. There's all these different articulations and ways to be talking about mental health and your personal development and, you know, working on yourself and healing and trauma and this and this and this. And if you really pay attention,
So much of the language that's being used is actually prescribing long-winded journeys to get to where you want to be today and tomorrow. But they sound nice. They sound whimsical. They sound soft. They sound attractive. They sound grounding. They sound intuitive. They sound spiritual. They sound this, this, or this. And so it sounds soft and aligned. But last time I checked,
I mean, most people don't need this like ultra long winded journey. Is that effective? Let me get to the point, right? is, yeah, when you're looking for authentic and sustained relief, are you gonna consider that a success when you finally get it when you're 90? I mean, is that successful for you? Was that road trip you went down, was that the most effective road you could have been driving down, right? So it's anyway, to get to like,
Challaine (43:31)
and when they're looking for relief right now.
COACH MAK (43:53)
All these different therapeutic interventions and modalities and schools of thought, they all have value. They all have merit. But I encourage our listener, I encourage you, I encourage myself, I encourage my clients, I encourage our listeners today to give honest evaluation and consideration into who you're hiring to help you, whether it's anxiety or whatever else, depression, you name it. If you are...
If you are hiring someone to help you and bring them onto what I call your personal team, right? People that are there showing up to support you and foster a environment that's going to help you move into the most aligned version of yourself, are they providing you effective support? Not nice support, not...
Challaine (44:39)
There's that keyword, yeah. What questions
can we ask for someone like for someone listening they're like hey this is me I need help this anxiety it's like it's ruining my life and all the therapists psychotherapists whatever blah blah blah. What questions like I think you need to interview the person that you want to be in a relationship with just like when you go on a first date with someone you're asking all these questions to see if you're going to be a good fit right so what types of questions
COACH MAK (45:07)
Mm-hmm.
Challaine (45:09)
Could we be asking our therapist or coach or whoever?
COACH MAK (45:14)
Yeah, I love this question because I always get this little deer in the headlights looks from people when I, when I invite them to consider that they have autonomy and choice and empowerment and how they can show up when they are scoping out the prospective relationship with a practitioner. Right. And for any listeners that come to me or come to you, Shalane, you know, when you're consult, I'm sure you have consultations, right. For your coaching, right. When people come.
to a coach, a therapist, a doctor, you know, what have you, ask, let's just take anxiety, for example, because it's easy for me to talk about. But if you are going to a practitioner, and even the practitioner you do have, if you were listening to Shalane and I's conversation right now, and you already have a practitioner you're working with to help you with your mental health, to help you with your anxiety, and you haven't had this conversation yet, it's time to have it. And one thing you can do is you can...
Challaine (45:47)
Yes, yeah, yeah.
COACH MAK (46:08)
open up the floor with that practitioner and say, you know, I'm really looking to get XYZ result with my anxiety. I want to check with you from your education, from your pair of lens that you wear, from your approach and perspective to anxiety. What do you think is realistic concerning timeline? From your professional experience and now knowing a little bit about my circumstance,
I'm saying this as if we're in a consultation, right? What do you think is a fair expectation of when I should be feeling real life, feel great reduction in my anxiety? Are we talking three months from now, a year from now, two weeks from now? What are you thinking is realistic and achievable within our time together? And if you ask this to many practitioners, you will be met with silence because they will be stunned.
Challaine (46:37)
Of course.
COACH MAK (47:05)
or they will be stunted because they're often not asked this. And when they are asked this, as well intended as they are, the truth is, is that many therapeutic, yeah, they don't, well, there's that, but many therapeutic practitioners don't want to be responsible for your results or lack of results. Now, let me say that again, because it's so obvious yet not obvious. Many practitioners do not actually want to take responsibility.
Challaine (47:06)
Mm-hmm.
They don't want to you as a client.
COACH MAK (47:35)
for either your results or lack of results. Because if you are responsible and you don't, and the results don't take optimal form, then you as a practitioner are going to experience guilt and grief and look unattractive. And I'm talking from the subconscious level. Like from the subconscious level, that is unattractive. That is an unattractive prospect. We don't want that. And so a good way to evade ever,
Challaine (47:52)
Yeah.
COACH MAK (48:03)
having that be our unfolding is that we actually evade full responsibility in how we're working with a client or a patient or a participant. So one just the most common way is actually avoiding responsibility of actually giving, say, any timeline or actually giving a more definitive statement about the results that could be achieved or giving a more clear
best guess evaluation of what the person will be experiencing and when, of course, without any unfair promises. Like we don't want to be promising something to a client or, yeah. Yeah.
Challaine (48:38)
Of course, of course. So I'm going to ask you, Coach Mack, what,
how I've got anxiety. I am your client. I'm your new client. What, what is a timeline that I can expect from working with you to feel authentic, to feel alive in my skin, to enjoy my life, to reduce these symptoms of anxiety where I don't have to pull over on the side of the road and call my husband to talk me out of it? What can you, what's a realist expectation for us working?
together. Was that right? Is that what I should be doing? Okay, a little role play. I hated role play, but I did well.
COACH MAK (49:09)
Well, and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I know. Do you want me to answer? The real little quick side off role play is I couldn't answer this unless I knew a little bit more information. Because if you were just coming to me for general anxiety versus panic, there would be a bit of a difference on how I would be initially engaging with you. this is a good example. I would guarantee you that you could feel differently. Let's put it that way. You could feel differently. And by differently, I mean,
Challaine (49:17)
Yeah, yeah, answer, answer.
COACH MAK (49:44)
authentically better within one to two sessions. And why can I promise that? I can promise that because 99 % of people that tip toe into my world have never even been told what anxiety really is. Or if they have been introduced to the concept of anxiety, the way that it's been introduced hasn't been effective in speaking to their whole mind, which is exactly why I have people come to me that's been, you know, they've been seeking professional help for their anxiety for a month.
two years, three years, or 20 years, and they on camera in the con... Yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually was in a consultation call with a woman that was, I think, 74 the other day. Yeah. And still not knowing what even anxiety is. So I often ask, one of the first things I ask people at Tiptoe in my world is, you know, what is your perception of what's been going on for you? You know, how do you understand anxiety? What is your perception of it?
Challaine (50:16)
That sounds like hell, 20 years.
COACH MAK (50:41)
What is your definition of it? You know, what have you? And I get met with silence. And it's not because they don't know, they don't know. And if you don't know, and it's not about getting the right answer, right? It's not about, I want to, let's, okay, pop quiz time. I'm going to ask you what anxiety is. You better have a nice polished, articulate answer or else you don't know what you're talking about. No, no, no. I'm actually just, what I'm trying to hear is not about a right answer. I'm trying to hear about an effective answer. Is there a perception?
Challaine (50:47)
They just don't know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
COACH MAK (51:10)
and an understanding of anxiety that is serving you. Is it serving you in a way that is actually helping reduce anxiety and get you to where you wanna go in life? Because I want that double whammy. I want that win-win. I want you to understand what anxiety is, understand it in such a way that it's actually helping you get to where you wanna go. And most people, if they're introduced to what anxiety is, they're introduced to it in a way that is kind of this like half-baked like...
it's this natural response in your nervous system and it has to do with this thing called a fight, flight or freeze response and blah, blah, blah. And it doesn't leave people with much of being able to do something.
Challaine (51:45)
anything. It's just it's
like a cliched statement that's just getting bulldozed over and over again. Like what does that actually all mean? Yeah. And for you. Yeah.
COACH MAK (51:51)
Yes. So to get to your question,
that's how I often spend my first few sessions with folks, is we address that. Because that's the place we should start. And just from starting there and polishing out or pivoting our understanding of anxiety, sometimes for some people, that is all they need. Sometimes people don't need a...
multiple coaching sessions, six months of therapy, five years of therapy and three medications. Sometimes what people just need is to understand clearly what the fuck is happening in their body, why it's happening and what there is to do about it. And that should be done in a one to two session conversation. This is what I'm saying. We have been sold this lie that we need to work on our anxiety. Well, if you're working on it, shit ain't getting done.
Challaine (52:29)
Yeah.
No, I'm just going to work every day. Yeah.
COACH MAK (52:46)
That's what I like to say. If you're working on it, shit ain't getting done.
Yeah. You don't go to school and your daughter, what is she? Is she in high school? she junior high? Yeah. When the teacher gives her an essay, let's say a history essay assignment, it's probably going to be due in a month from now, two months from now, three weeks from now. Well, if she was still working on that essay eight years from now.
Challaine (52:56)
Yeah.
COACH MAK (53:12)
It is way overdue. It's so overdue that it's not even relevant. It's not relevant. Now there's no clear end finish line when it comes to anxiety, but we also do need to understand that if you're on this never ending treadmill, I call it the perpetual starting line. Yeah, it's a hamster wheel, but you're on the perpetual starting line because if you're still working on that essay eight years from now, that means you haven't really started it.
Challaine (53:14)
Yeah. I love that.
or the hamster wheel.
COACH MAK (53:41)
It should have been done eight years ago, right? So anyway, I'll pause there. I'm going off.
Challaine (53:43)
Yeah.
I love that. It's like full circle, brain well moments, just incredible insight. I wanted to tap on one thing. We're not slamming therapists here by any means or psychologists or any of that. Like you did mention, everybody does have their...
purpose or value, they offer their specific value. So we're not knocking anything there. But I do want to tap into when you are interviewing the person that you are potentially wanting to work with. For me personally, if I were to redo sobriety again, I probably wouldn't have hired my therapist at the time. I probably would have hired a sobriety coach.
someone who has experienced being a fucking drunk. Just like if I or my son, he plays, he's an elite hockey player. Does he want a volleyball coach? Does he want a tennis coach? No, he wants a coach who has played the game and can coach you and can coach him on hockey. So I'm just throwing that out there that as you're searching for your people to support you in your life,
COACH MAK (54:41)
Mm-hmm.
Challaine (55:06)
I mean, is an appropriate question to ask. Did you struggle with alcohol? For me, it's all over the internet, right? Like it's not hard to find. My therapist, as far as I know, she doesn't drink, she never drank. I love her. I think she's great. But if I were to redo my sobriety, I wouldn't want to go back to the talk therapy and lying on the couch, closing my eyes, thinking of little me and...
how horrible my mother was to me at some times, at some instances in my life, right? So to really like interview your person that you are going to be spending hopefully not eight years with, but three months, three weeks, whatever. I think that's really, really important because they're gonna be an integral part of your life.
COACH MAK (55:58)
Yeah, I agree with you on all this. It's about, this goes back to no matter who you're hiring, what their title is, what their background is, I don't care if it's a unicorn sitting in the middle of a meadow and you're having a picnic with that unicorn. It's about knowing where is this source of support, being a source of support. Okay, let's bookshelf that. Now let's ask where are they not being a source of support? And let's just have an honest evaluation of that. You gain that information and then you choose your next action steps.
Maybe that means keeping your one therapist you have and interplaying with them in such a way so you really get the juiciness and you squeeze out as much value as you can get from what they are providing you. And then you add on a different team member who can provide a different form of value to you. And yes.
Challaine (56:46)
And this is that holistic approach, right? Like
maybe you introduce a personal trainer or a natural nutritionist, right? Like this is just like using everybody's experiences and stories. I say it all the time, it takes a village, right? It doesn't take a village just to raise your own children. It takes a village to like be you sometimes and to get those appropriate supports.
COACH MAK (57:02)
Well,
Yeah. And
how can we, how can we enjoy being in the village with less brain pain, brain drain and wallet strain? Cause we all want that. It doesn't matter what your financial resource capacity is. It doesn't matter how much energy and vibrancy you feel in your body or don't feel in your body. We're all human and we all want less brain pain, less brain drain and less wallet strain. Now and in, in 10 years from now, know, Shalane went at just a quick sharing cause this is, was a really pivotal moment in my
Challaine (57:31)
Amen.
COACH MAK (57:38)
personal process with yes sobriety, but also, you know, going through getting professional help for my anxiety. And then later on, you know, now doing what I do. I one time was seeing a therapist, of course, for beginnings of my panic. And I actually, he was, he was great. He was nice, well intended. Once again, he was a source of support in some regards, but he also leaned. I remember, I remember this like this was yesterday. I remember what the office looked like. I remember the couch shape. I remember the lighting in the room. He leaned forward and said to me,
in a very loving, very sympathetic kind of way. But he essentially tried to inform me, hey, from my professional angle that I'm coming at, I feel it is a high prospect that you will have panic for forever and that this is not going to get better. Now, why did he say that? He didn't say that because he was trying to ruin my life. He didn't say that because he wanted me to fail. He didn't say that because...
He wanted, he was just some evil asshole who wasn't interested in helping me. He said that because in his professional experience, the honest to God truth was from all his years being a therapist, he hadn't really seen anyone with the level of panic that I had. He never really saw anyone get better. So he was saying, Hey, I want you to have a fair expectation. I've personally and professionally never seen people get too much better. So you might not as well. Now that's
Challaine (58:40)
Yeah.
people weren't getting better.
Mmm.
Wow.
COACH MAK (59:06)
Okay, so that is an example of, go back to, right, you and I are not given any shade to any kind of practitioner from any school of thought. This just goes back to, know, both you and I, I know we're passionate for our listeners to find effective help. So that day when I sat there and I had that therapist say that to me, I had to think to myself, was that an effective...
Challaine (59:07)
That's huge, that's heavy, yeah.
COACH MAK (59:33)
source of support for me right now in this moment. Someone that's feeling terrified that she's losing her mind and doesn't understand what this whole thing called panic is and panic attacks, to then be told by someone of authority and more education experience, like, hey, you're probably going to have this possibly for forever, right? Is that feeling effective for me? No. And that's just it. There doesn't need to be any negative energy put towards the situation. There doesn't need to be any hyper critical criticism.
Challaine (59:44)
Yes.
In that moment,
it was a no, looking and just like having this conversation, looking back at that moment, I feel like, yes, it was effective because now you know when he said that, what it means for you and for others going down the line, right? To find that fucking keyword effective. based off of what he's, yeah.
COACH MAK (1:00:27)
It's thank you, but no thank you. That's yeah.
Thank you, but no thank you. That's not of service to me. Thank you, but no thank you. That's not of service to me. And actually you asked, you Hey, for listeners, what can they say? You know, during the, when they're kind of interview. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What you can say, what's your success rate, but also in the moment when you're working with someone, if they do, if they say something, prescribe something, suggest something that you instantly know, like, Hey, like that ain't going to fuck him.
Challaine (1:00:41)
What's your success rate?
COACH MAK (1:00:57)
Like that's not, that's nope, and you just know intuitively, like I don't want that to be true. don't, for example, I sat there and I was like, I don't want to feel like I'm losing my mind for forever. And there's some small part of me that knows that it doesn't have to be that way. So thank you for your sharing. Thank you for what you just offered up for support. But no thank you, that's not of service to me.
Challaine (1:01:19)
And we don't have to be committed to these people for the rest of our lives. Like it is a relationship and we can get divorced, we can break up, we can have no hard feelings and we can move on. Before we wrap up here, I think I'm going to throw myself under the bus because, and maybe I'm throwing you under the bus right now because prior to hitting record, you mentioned to me that you wanted to mention something about something inside my book. Do you remember what that was?
COACH MAK (1:01:48)
my gosh, there was so much. inside your book. Well, I mean, well, no, think one of the biggest things, I mean, this was a bit generic, but I was just wanting to hear more about what your experience was with anxiety as it came to drinking. Now you talked about it in the book, right? So I don't mean from beginning to end, like, you know, all the details of when you experience anxiety, because you clearly talked about that in the book, but.
Challaine (1:01:52)
And if you don't, and if you don't, that's fine. It's all good.
Go buy the book.
COACH MAK (1:02:17)
was I think more what I'm curious about as someone that's now read your book, someone that's connecting with you, and then of course, from the standpoint of an anxiety coach, and then as well as someone that was freaking the fuck out all the time because of my drinking and the intersections of what that was doing to my brain, I'm just curious for you how prevalent was anxiety in both during the process of being an active drinker and then during the process of sobering, because those are two different kind of seasons of life, and they can come with their own
Challaine (1:02:30)
No!
COACH MAK (1:02:47)
expressions of anxiety and you talk about anxiety but you actually talk about it extremely brief in your book. You mention anxiety probably the word anxiety like 10 times but it's not like you have a whole chapter of like you know detailing panic attacks or things like that so I was just curious how prevalent anxiety really was in your experience.
Challaine (1:02:58)
Yeah.
I think because
I was writing this book as I was getting sober. got my last day of drinking was January 15th and I probably after the detox, I started writing a week later. So I was literally writing that book as I was getting sober. And in hindsight, how anxiety affected me in my day to day operations was I needed booze not to feel anxious. And that was just like, that was my normal. That was just...
this is just normal for me now, I need to talk to my doctor and get her opinion. And there's a key word, I just kind of slipped it in there. Yes, doctors are based by science and facts and blah, blah, but opinion, right? You can go to five different doctors and get five different opinions backed by different research that different doctors have read, right? So take...
COACH MAK (1:04:00)
Well, because
they're medical practitioners, which means they're practicing medicine. And I always remind my clients of that for conversations. And that's important, right? Because they are going to be practicing their medical opinion. So yes.
Challaine (1:04:12)
I love that. Back to your question. So anxiety had just become a part of my life during my drinking career and it became more prevalent in the like my 30s, like 18. Woohoo! Didn't fucking matter. And then in hindsight I was had anxiety because of the drinking and I couldn't connect the two while they were married to each other.
Right? They, had to like quit the booze and then obviously look back at my journey. Why am I here? How did this happen? Blah, blah. And really starting to tap into my own body and what I was feeling and not feeling anymore. And anxiety, yeah, sure. It still comes up. I get anxious recording episodes sometimes. And that's just, yeah, looking back, it was because I was married to the bottle.
It was the poison. The poison was like shaking things up everywhere. Like I wasn't living from my soul or my heart.
COACH MAK (1:05:19)
Yeah. know, Shalane, just a quick little funny memory that popped into my mind just now, and it goes back to our conversation about effective sources of support and all that. You know who the first practitioner that actually looked at me throughout my years and said to me, like looked me deep into my eyes with a I'm not fucking around kind of face and said, essentially, you need to sober up. Like this is a need. Like, what are you doing?
this is not healthy, you should not be having this many drinks a day, you all that, you whatever, right? Was my gynecologist, a new gynecologist, my first appointment with this gynecologist, okay? She saw my intake form, saw my honest answer of my regular, you know, weekly alcoholic beverage indulgences, and she first thing started the meeting with what the hell is this? You're, you know, you're 20 something, what is this? And she was not happy.
Challaine (1:05:52)
Yeah, yeah.
Yay!
Okay.
Ugh, yeah.
COACH MAK (1:06:17)
She was not happy. Now, we don't need to go into details of how she approached me about it, and the language she used was of optimal support, because it wasn't. But the point being is that out of all the therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists I work with, not one of them looked at me and more sternly set up an environment for having a transparent and worthwhile conversation around stimulant use. Not one.
And yet I was honest with all of those practitioners about any form of stimulant use that I was using. Not one spoke up. A gynecologist. A gynecologist. And my first of what was a birth. Yeah, and that was years. I'm talking like years and years into my process. It wasn't like the first year where I was kind of starting to drink more. I'm talking like nine years deep, eight years deep. Yeah.
Challaine (1:06:49)
Yep.
incredible and I you would not expect that yeah you would not expect that
Okay, I gotta ask. I think I'm okay now with my anxiety. Like I said, it creeps up every once in while. But for those going through it on the daily, my first question is, in the instant, immediate, I'm having an anxiety attack, a panic attack, what do I do? Whether if I'm in public or if I'm by myself, because they can show up, you don't know when they're gonna happen. What do I do in this moment I need to calm
down.
COACH MAK (1:07:40)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, you know, so many people will start to suggest different breathing exercises, take deep breaths, do this, do this. I'm a big practitioner of breath and I can talk all day about that and the power of that. But I often in these kind of quick, like what's the quick tip or trick, you know, I actually really steer away from talking about breath work because it's really hard to tell someone who's freaking the fuck out and about to hyperventilate or...
Challaine (1:07:57)
Mm-hmm.
Just breathe.
COACH MAK (1:08:06)
Yeah, to just
breathe, okay, do a box breath, inhale for one, two, know, all that kind of crap. doesn't, it's crap because it doesn't, it's not, once again, I hate to overuse it, but is that the most effective? Or are we moving into this long-winded, harder journey than we need to be in? So I often, now it's not going to give you this instant joyous, sexy, immediate result, but it's going to set you up for the most success in the long run.
Challaine (1:08:15)
effective.
COACH MAK (1:08:34)
is whether you're having a panic attack or you're just feeling mildly anxious or anything in between, I want you to pay attention to what is your response that you were having to yourself, either internally or externally. Internally can be thoughts, internally could be introspection about the thing your mother did back when you were 13 and how annoying that was and oh, know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It could be any kind of introspection. It could be thoughts. Oh my God, okay, I hate this, I hate this. Okay, where's my glass of water? It could be thoughts like that, whatever.
If anything that's going on inside the mind, internally or externally, how are you acting towards others? Are you pacing around the room? Are you starting to fidget your hand? So anything external. I always advise people, pay attention to your internal or external response and then honest evaluation, what result is that getting you? Now, what result is that getting you immediately, right? In 10 seconds, what result is that getting you within a few minutes? And what result is that getting you within an hour?
Challaine (1:09:27)
Yeah.
COACH MAK (1:09:32)
Okay, it's not about always like, is that getting you in five seconds from now? But it's about these reoccurring, showing up to experience a honest conversation with yourself about response and result and how that's being repeated. So I kind of call it like the three Rs, your response, the result, and how you're, the repetition, how often are you still doing that same response and result? Because most people will go years and years and years of their life having the exact same response to their anxiety, getting the exact same result and just repeating it.
Challaine (1:09:47)
Yeah.
And at the end of the day, we've. Yeah.
COACH MAK (1:10:01)
And then they're wondering why the therapy's not working, the medication's not working,
the journaling isn't working, the meditation's not working. Well, it's because you keep showing up and doing the exact same response and thinking you're gonna get a different result.
Challaine (1:10:14)
and
COACH MAK (1:10:14)
So that's why I don't like to tell
people, well, hey, if you're freaking out, let's do some breath work. No, if you're freaking out and you don't know what to do, if you don't know how to effectively help yourself, it's because you haven't experienced that yet. So let's start to evaluate, first of all, what are we even experiencing right now? That's way more important for setting you up in the long run than me telling you to do a box breath exercise.
Challaine (1:10:33)
I love the honesty. Before we wrap up, like it's just black and white, right? This is it. Before we wrap up, do you have any quick tips, tools, secrets of the trade or just like messages of hope? Anything that we didn't cover that you can pass on to our listeners and myself.
COACH MAK (1:10:55)
Yes, if anyone whether a... Yeah, yeah, yeah. So my quick kind of words of wisdom is if anyone, your best friend, your mother, your boyfriend, the guy at the bar that you're flirting with, the psychiatrist you've hired, whoever.
Challaine (1:10:58)
And how do we connect with you? do, yeah.
Yes.
flirted
with a guy at the bar in so long that would give me anxiety that
COACH MAK (1:11:17)
I know, I'm actually, I don't know. I was trying to say something that
wasn't just harking on therapist again, right? And it's funny, the moment I said that, I thought the same thing. Like what was the last time I flirted with a dude at a bar? Like never, most of the time I went to bars, I was like just with old men, old cowboy men, and I was just trying to drink by myself. So there was no flirting, but anyway. Okay, where was I going with that? okay, run. Run if you're chatting with anyone and they...
Challaine (1:11:25)
my god.
Yeah, at the bar.
gosh.
COACH MAK (1:11:44)
try to prescribe anything ultra long-winded. So in other words, if they're saying, oh, you'll likely have panic for forever, or they say something that's just so generic and overarching and whimsical like, oh, well, we all have anxiety. I just, want you to.
Challaine (1:12:03)
I love the way
your voice changes. we all have anxiety. Yeah.
COACH MAK (1:12:08)
my god, because I've heard it so many times before. If there's any rhetoric that you are hearing from someone that is prescribing or setting you up for a long-winded journey that is likely full of brain pain, brain drain, and wallet strain, I want you to say thank you, but no thank you, this is not of service to me. And just start practicing that, whether in your mind or out loud, it doesn't matter.
Because so much of us, so many of us really need to hear that. And you're not going to get that from pop culture. You're not going to get that from the influencer on YouTube that's telling you to meditate for five hours a day and go on a retreat. And then don't forget your face mask. And then don't forget to have your boyfriend rub your shoulders at night if he's the right man for you or whatever. I I don't even know. I don't listen to any of this. I'm just like making this up on the spot. But these things that will sound so nice and calming,
Challaine (1:12:52)
You
Yeah
COACH MAK (1:13:06)
and attractive are often actually prescribing you the longest route to get to where you want to go to. So I just recommend start to open yourself up to the possibility and the observation of how many opportunities are around you for you to actually say thank you, but no, thank you. That will not be of service to me. And just start practicing that because your brain needs to be...
Challaine (1:13:28)
And this is what it means
like do your research ask the questions get curious talk to many different people and Like process of elimination, right? How can we get a hold of you?
COACH MAK (1:13:38)
Yeah.
you can come connect with me. yeah, really, anyone that wants to tiptoe into my world to just connect, to chat, to see how I could be of service, both directly or indirectly, I love just helping people get to their next best steps and figuring out effective sources for really reducing your anxiety, right? Like that's what I'm all about. You can find me at actionableanxiety.com or you can just simply Google Coach Mac with actionable anxiety and it's MAK.
Challaine (1:13:43)
Where do we go?
COACH MAK (1:14:11)
Mac is M-A-K, so. And let's reach out. I'm not, there's not, I really love when I get cold emails from people. So don't be afraid to if you were coming to me from a highly anxious place and the thought of you reaching out to say hello to an anxiety coach and just open up a conversation is inducing a lot of anxiety to you. I always recommend people just fill out my contact form online and say, hey, I just want to connect.
Challaine (1:14:13)
Thank you, Coach Mack.
Yeah.
COACH MAK (1:14:40)
Just say that one sentence and I will know what you mean. You got the, yeah, I'll take the conversation from there. Yeah.
Challaine (1:14:42)
You got the rest. You got the rest.
Thank you coach Mac for being on the show today and thank you to our listeners for tuning in to another episode of let's have a chat like it share it send it off into the world just we just want to get this message out to as many people as possible and as always have the best day ever until next time thanks guys